CircleBoy on the recent Woodberri Game

[CircleBoy]

Right. First of all I'm not going to make any arguments about wither anyone actually impersonated anyone. Because to be 100% honest I don't know. Nor does it affect this post in any way.

As some of you might know with Tanzim getting a matchban Wood berry recently spent a game against Gorillas just taking the ball to the corner and generally fucking about. We (including me) thought it was amusing. Several people didn't. I'm going to try to address why we did it and what I think should be done about it.

Without being overly critical the way the admins dealt with the impersonation issue was poor. Contradictory information, inconsistencies, nothing was really made public so people found out about it as if it was a game of chinese whispers and got half a story, etc, etc, etc. You just need to look at the still continuing shitstorm about the whole thing to see that it was mishandled.

Now combine this with the teams situation. Edgar Davids had recently taken over with most of the team playing LoL in-staid of hax. He began trying to pull a team together, organize practice and generaly improve things. We were short on players despite our seemingly large roster but spirits were high, then all of a sudden we find out one of our key players has an 8 game ban...or then a 4 game ban...or maybe an 8 game ban again. To make matters worse its on the day the transfer window closes. All that momentum...gone...

Put yourself in our shoes, just as we're pulling together we get a player knocked off for reasons that are still being debated. It sucked. You can read countless professional community managers talking about what happens when community members fell disenfranchised. But to save you the time...the game against Gorillas is what happens. You feel the community doesn't care about you so you stop caring about it. We stopped caring and we just decided to have some fun.

But that brings me to the problem that dawned on me after I was done laughing at the game. It was fun for us yes, and we got to create a little forum drama and wallow in it like pigs in shit. But it wasn't fun for the Gorillas. They were...so to speak. innocent victims. Its not their fault we felt hard done by by the admins, they just had a bad match-up that day.

So here's what I suggest, and since I'm not a captain or an admin this is only a suggestion but I think its a good one. Just re the game. But with one caveat. The gorillas can't lose. If they beat us..then they beat us. If we beat them, keep the 0-0. This way everyone's happy, we got to let of steam and fuck about, and the Gorillas don't feel like they're owed a real game.


As for the impersonation. I don't know or care if they did or didn't do it but I'd like to request the ban on Tanz at least be overturned due to outstanding circumstances. If we did indeed have impersonators it was because we don't have enough players. Giving us one less player on the eve of the close of free agency is, if anything, going to make more impersonation likely. I'm asking for a bit of leeway, some kind of probation. A sort of "one more mistake and you're gone". We do that and all of a sudden most of the drama goes away and hopefully Wood Berry gets to compete properly in Div 2.




btw I once impersonated ghost in a galaxy game

[Jai]

one more mistake and you're gone

[Constantinople]

just overturn all bans, there's no solid proof that these people impersonated.

Good post boy of circular proportions

[Edgar Davids]

cb speaks the truth

i admit what we did vs gorillas wasn't in the spirit of the game or in the best interest of the league and i apologise to gorillas on behalf on wood berri. and the post after didn't help either lullis.

so yeah, we're sowwwwy (but it was funny l0l)

[naby]

I'd like to know why there wasn't an official post detailing the evidence against Wood Berry and explaining the reasoning for the bans.

On a slightly unrelated topic regarding past impersonation of a Northern Lights player, even though there WAS sufficient evidence back then to suggest that Falk was impersonated, when we (admins) went about it correctly, detailing the evidence and the punishment.. the community was outraged for some wild reason (even though the punishment was severely lenient).

So.. can admins ever get it right?

[CircleBoy]

No rach they cant. Its one of the curses of authority. Can you honestly remember one major FM decision or where everyone went "good job admins " other than the site change?

I guess you just need to do the best you can.





btw I once impersonated blazing in an FM game

[Ghost]

btw I once impersonated blazing in an FM game

200% goalscoring record, still never been beaten to this day!





------------------------------------------------------------------


Right, seeing as no one else has bothered I'll post everything we had to work with.

Spoiler: Show

<00:55:55> "Perkins": i think dooms said he was on wood berri channel when tanz asked
<00:55:59> "Perkins": i wasnt there
<00:56:09> "[jonni] jonni": i fort it was a joke :s
<00:56:22> "[jonni] jonni": was that not momo?
<00:56:25> "Perkins": i have jai at my buddies on ts
<00:56:30> "Perkins": and here was a MoMo
<00:56:33> "Perkins": on wood berri channel
<00:56:37> "Perkins": with Jai tag on ts
<00:56:39> "Perkins": as well
<00:56:43> "Perkins": and both on Mac
<01:00:27> "[jonni] jonni": fs
<01:00:41> "Perkins": <00:27:41> "dooms2": <19:44:56> "Ogre": sfe
<19:45:08> "Tanzim": ogre
<19:45:11> "Tanzim": do u wanna play 2day??
<19:45:22> "chuckie": ogre can AM
<19:45:24> "chuckie": chuckie fwd
<19:45:39> "Ogre": i can barely be arsed to play hax wiv my own team nvm urs
<01:03:42> "[jonni] jonni": i didnt understand that 1
<01:03:47> "[jonni] jonni": ogre didnt play
<01:04:20> "Perkins": ye but tanz tried to impersonate
<01:04:29> "Perkins": thats my point
<01:04:40> "Perkins": ogre is nice and ofc he didnt play
<01:04:49> "[jonni] jonni": l0l. you cant say whats an attempt or a joke
<01:04:55> "[jonni] jonni": we had enough players
<01:05:01> "Perkins": yea nobody knows
<01:05:04> "Perkins": yea, but not a gk
<01:05:23> "Perkins": <22:01:32> "dooms2": btw stop gettin impersinators
<22:01:52> "Tanzim": ????
<22:01:58> "Tanzim": bro im sik of bein accused of impersonatin ppl
<22:02:01> "Tanzim": i havent dne anytthing wrong smh
<22:02:50> "dooms2": perkins added jai to his buddy
<22:02:55> "dooms2": momo wasnt online today
<22:03:17> "dooms2": Pеrkіns] Perkins": and this MoMo
<21:59:32> "[Pеrkіns] Perkins": was on Mac
<21:59:34> "[Pеrkіns] Perkins": same as jai
<22:03:30> "Tanzim": so only 1 person is allowed
<22:03:33> "Tanzim": to ahve a mac
<22:03:34> "Tanzim": and its jai??
<22:03:40> "dooms2": its unlikely
<22:03:42> "dooms2": and
<22:03:51> "dooms2": momo doesnt use the avatar Mo
<22:03:52> "Tanzim": bro
<22:03:54> "Tanzim": do you know
<22:03:57> "Tanzim": how many units
<22:03:59> "Tanzim": apple have sold?
<22:04:02> "Tanzim": how da fuk is it unlikely
<22:04:08> "Tanzim": momo is doing a it corus
<01:05:40> "Perkins": not sure if u saw that coz u were afk for a while
<01:06:03> "[jonni] jonni": nop
<02:15:31> "[jonni] jonni": <00:14:43> "Jai": cus perkins would ban me, he told me that if i did it again i would be perma/season banned
<00:14:51> "Jai": i did it thirsday cus tanz didnt have enough
<02:15:38> "[jonni] jonni": you already knew about thursday?
<02:17:25> "Perkins": yes but i have no proof
<02:17:32> "Perkins": for thursday
<02:17:45> "[jonni] jonni": what does that matter if you got a confession?
<02:18:05> "Perkins": matter what ?
<02:18:17> "[jonni] jonni": proof or no proof
<02:18:21> "Perkins": you mean @ this post
<02:18:24> "Perkins": ?
<02:18:46> "Perkins": same as today, but no screenshots or something like that
<02:21:04> "[jonni] jonni": "one more time"
<02:21:08> "[jonni] jonni": so you knew before that post?
<02:21:33> "[jonni] jonni": w8 nvm
<02:21:40> "[jonni] jonni": allow the tiredness
<02:22:00> "[jonni] jonni": <00:15:17> "jonni": so who was momo
<00:16:44> "jonni": y u stutterin 4
<00:18:53> "Jai": sry was playing
<00:18:59> "Jai": i cant tll you that, they would get banned
<00:19:03> "Jai": but it was not me 100%
<02:22:03> "[jonni] jonni": kid finks this is a game
<02:22:52> "[jonni] jonni": well currently everythin points to him, so unless he says who it was, he's band
<02:22:56> "Perkins": he said "sorry i cant tell u hes too nice"
<02:23:14> "[jonni] jonni": he sed it was him 1st on thurs?
<02:23:22> "[jonni] jonni": not yet
<02:23:39> "Perkins": rolex said someone impersonated him
<02:23:49> "Perkins": jai said it wasnt he
<02:24:09> "Perkins": rolex played that game striker, lol
<02:24:15> "[jonni] jonni": <00:14:51> "Jai": i did it thirsday cus tanz didnt have enough
<02:24:28> "Perkins": so this is enough i think
<02:24:46> "Perkins": but he still didnt say who impersonated
<02:24:53> "Perkins": he said "hes too nice i wont tell u"
<02:25:11> "[jonni] jonni": "i did it thirsday"
<02:25:14> "[jonni] jonni": wtf ed, r u blind
<02:25:49> "Perkins": http://fm-haxball.co.uk/index.php?page=fixture&id=467
<02:25:55> "Perkins": im talking about this game
<02:25:57> "Perkins": yes
<02:25:58> "Perkins": he was rolex
<02:26:04> "[jonni] jonni": o
<02:26:04> "Perkins": but he said he knows who was momo
<02:26:06> "[jonni] jonni": i fort momo
<02:26:07> "Perkins": but he wont say that
<02:26:14> "Perkins": because that guy is too nice
<02:26:16> "Perkins": lol
<02:26:29> "[jonni] jonni": ah, so this is where ogre comes in?
<02:26:46> "Perkins": i dont think ogre would do that
<02:26:51> "Perkins": but ye could be
<02:27:24> "[jonni] jonni": <19:45:08> "Tanzim": ogre
<19:45:11> "Tanzim": do u wanna play 2day??
<02:27:50> "[jonni] jonni": what do we even do tbh
<02:28:36> "Perkins": yeah but
<02:28:37> "Perkins": <19:45:39> "Ogre": i can barely be arsed to play hax wiv my own team nvm urs
<02:29:08> "[jonni] jonni": its the way tanz says that. its like he's played before
<02:29:35> "[jonni] jonni": and ogre understands what he means
<02:30:01> "Perkins": ah
<02:30:15> "Perkins": ye thats a good point
<02:30:20> "[jonni] jonni": ogre doesnt even question what he's talking about
<02:30:26> "[jonni] jonni": i mean, i had no idea what he meant
<02:30:32> "[jonni] jonni": yet ogre does
<02:41:14> "Perkins": <02:39:57> "Perkins": tell me who impersonated MoMo in cup game ?
<02:40:08> "Perkins": you said you wont tell me because hes too nice, iirc
<02:40:29> "[Jai] Jai": i'm not telling you
<02:41:18> "Perkins": so he knows
<02:41:25> "Perkins": he didnt even say i dont know
<02:41:55> "[jonni] jonni": pekrin pls
<02:49:13> "[jonni] jonni": WB are gonna collapse here l0l
<02:49:58> "Perkins": lol
<02:50:12> "Perkins": i thought tanz wouldnt do that tbh, he has like 10 members in team
<03:05:09> "[jonni] jonni": <01:03:39> "jonni": why did tanz get you to pretend to be momo on TS and not the person who played as him?
<01:04:05> "Jai": if i tell you that it becomes obvious
<01:04:11> "Jai": like almost 100% easy to guess
<01:04:12> "jonni": why?
<01:04:35> "Jai": because that person has a tag, i dont
<03:05:12> "[jonni] jonni": ogre

Spoiler: Show

<01:11:23> "dooms2": o ye and
<01:11:24> "dooms2": http://pastebin.com/d8EBHzQf
<01:11:28> "dooms2": top bit
<01:11:42> "Perkins": i showd jonni dooms
<01:11:50> "dooms2": <22:02:20> "[Jai1] Jai": i was asked but i said no, ask anyone in the hcannel
<01:12:16> "Perkins": how can he explain MoMo had the same tag as well ?
<01:12:24> "Perkins": i mean if i add someone to buddies i can see who is he
<01:12:35> "[jonni] jonni": <18:17:35> "Jai": they had a match thursday and they wouldnt play cus they were in the middle of a lol match
<18:18:30> "jonni": :-(
<18:19:39> "Jai": mans had to impersonate sry
<18:20:51> "jonni": dw i wont tell no one
<18:22:41> "Jai": <3
<01:12:40> "[jonni] jonni": that was from friday
<01:12:42> "dooms2": he has [jai] next to his name?
<01:12:46> "[jonni] jonni": didnt realise he was srs
<01:12:59> "Perkins": middle of a lol match ?
<01:13:02> "Perkins": really ?
<01:13:05> "[jonni] jonni": idk
<01:13:12> "Perkins": it was
<01:13:16> "Perkins": [Jai] MoMo
<01:13:17> "Perkins": @dooms
<01:15:01> "[jonni] jonni": oh, just remembered
<01:15:22> "[jonni] jonni": earlier they were tellin momo he had a really good game in mid on thurs
<01:16:19> "dooms2": i fort they were trollin
<01:17:41> "[jonni] jonni": when you look at it now they're obv jokin that jai impersonated
<01:19:06> "[jonni] jonni": smh, and 'momo' left 4 mins from end of game
<01:19:15> "[jonni] jonni": claimed spikes but just fuked off
<01:19:29> "dooms2": it was a 8:00 game?
<01:19:44> "[jonni] jonni": ?
<01:19:51> "dooms2": the game momo played
<01:20:02> "[jonni] jonni": ?
<01:20:14> "[jonni] jonni": idk
<01:20:14> "dooms2": the game where he fkd off
<01:20:51> "dooms2": did momo play both games?
<01:21:32> "[jonni] jonni": ye
<01:22:06> "dooms2": jai had to play him game at 8:30
<01:22:49> "[jonni] jonni": ive no idea what time it was when we played
<01:23:02> "[jonni] jonni": took a while to get started
<01:23:11> "dooms2": have you got wood berrys ts chat?
<01:23:45> "[jonni] jonni": not far back enough
<01:23:52> "[jonni] jonni": sec
<01:24:23> "dooms2": i got it
<01:24:42> "dooms2": <20:41:00> "Ogre": woodberri score???
<20:41:02> "rolex": loooooool
<20:41:05> "chuckie": 3-0
<20:41:09> "Ogre": nice
<01:24:56> "[jonni] jonni": whats that to do wiv anytin?
<01:25:07> "dooms2": the time
<01:25:18> "dooms2": wat when the game possibly wouda ended
<01:25:33> "[jonni] jonni": about 10 mins b4 that
<01:25:49> "dooms2": <20:34:21> "chuckie": too ez
<01:25:58> "dooms2": thats when the match ended
<01:26:13> "dooms2": and jai fkd off 4 min before?
<01:33:43> "[jonni] jonni": ish
<01:34:35> "[jonni] jonni": pek hav u screen of that disconnect msg?
<01:34:39> "[jonni] jonni": and the tag?
<01:35:26> "Perkins": no i had to restart the pc because it freezed
<01:35:29> "[jonni] jonni": l0l
<01:35:33> "Perkins": the cursor i mean
<01:35:38> "Perkins": shit mouse
<01:35:44> "Perkins": it happens sometimes
<01:35:47> "[jonni] jonni": smh

<15:06:14> "Jai1": i admitted to impesonating rolex on thursday 11th july in the match against ricemen, at which time i was informed by perkins and jonny no action would be taken as i had owned up and it would be forgotten but if i did it again i would be banned for a time that was appropriate to them

lol?

http://pastebin.com/d8EBHzQf







Make of it what you will. I don't think anyone else would have disagreed with the decision if they were in an admins shoes at the time.

[dora da gora]

so jai admitted to the first one, thats fine pek warned him if it happens again he'll be banned.

the 2nd one he said he 100% didn't do it, knows who did it was a nice guy, and because the rumours about you was just throwing out 4, 5, 6, 8 match bans he decided to protect a friend and take one for the team

this is why confessions are rarely used as primary evidence in a courtroom, because theres so many variables that you might just be convicting the wrong guy.

and since you have shit evidence apart from that you're basically just using him as a scapegoat for this whole thing and banning an innocent player.

edit: just reading through those chat logs all i see are 'I thinks', 'no screens' and 'maybes'. You can't just hand out straight fuckin bans when you clearly don't even know.

[echsehh]

I can never understand how someone could do that.

I would rather have 5 defloss than one crappy illegal win..

Looks like half of FM has already impersonated on games. bravo.

[Casper07™]

So here's what I suggest, and since I'm not a captain or an admin this is only a suggestion but I think its a good one. Just re the game. But with one caveat. The gorillas can't lose. If they beat us..then they beat us. If we beat them, keep the 0-0. This way everyone's happy, we got to let of steam and fuck about, and the Gorillas don't feel like they're owed a real game.

I may only be VC or w/e of Gorillas but if I was witsel I would agree to this.

[Jai]

lol i know for a fact perkins was lying about that, plus he didnt have sufficient proof, any one who has played with me recently knows my laptop arrow key has broken, meaning i cant run downwards :p to play the games i had to use my computer, so what i did was i'd post the match links, be it friendlys or actual matches on galaxy forum and then go on them from my mac, as people have seen this and joined the rooms if i forgot/failed to delete them, i cant remember which day it was but it was that day with the 'momo impersionation' the first day i actually downloaded teamspeak for it, because it was just simpler, and again, as a few of my old teammates can remember it took a long time for my to get teamspeak just because i suck at computers, and that was the first time i had used that comp with ts ever, i.e no tags, no history, no friends with perkins either because he hated me back then, so thats a total lie

see how i told jonny, he says 'dw i wont tell anyone' you then see on another post perkins says 'if you impersonate again you will be banned' and did anyone see me actually tell perkins i did it? i remember it and if he hasnt completely changed he will too, i said it in a completely different way of what people think i confessed it in, i was fucking about because i assumed perkins would laugh it off like he did when we used to have to get impersonators in esl, he said to me something like 'i cant believe you did it, you cant do it again, it may have been funny when i wasnt admin but now i am i dont like it, dont do it ever again pls' so i said fine, i can be a knob, i like to have a laugh, but if someone says dont do something i wont

fuck this is getting long now

'sry i cant tell you who it was hes nice' i had no idea if there was an impersonator, i was asked earlier in the day if i could do it, in a jokey fashion i suspect, as the ogre one was, and i said no, alot of people were in the channel, as was jonny and could/should/would have seen me say 'no sry i dont want to impersonate' so i didnt, i went and played with ducks most of the night and then went to walk the dog about 7:50 ish, went round the park got back to the starlights game. jonny said to me 'if you cant prove its not you, then it is you' when i told people like edgar, rolex, tanzim, they said oh hes bluffing hes just trying to get the answer, i didnt know that as i'm not half as much clued up as them, so i just tried to devert the blame off of me, i dont remember jonny saying ogre at the end but i know i told him it wasnt, but maybe it was enough to spark a suspicion, so once again admins probed and probed, whatever, but i told jonny that i didn't do it, mainly because joehan told me not to, and perkins, i knew it was wrong, blablablabla

<01:26:13> "dooms2": and jai fkd off 4 min before?
<01:33:43> "[jonni] jonni": ish

is that real legit proof? that i fucked off 4 minutes before? i was back before that, i was talking to joe at about 25 past because before a game we always talk about what we needed to do for the game, especially the starlights one, i was talking to him for about 5/6 minutes before we went in to the room, plus i'd been out for the last 30 minutes with the dog, if thats a sufficient way to say 'it was defintely me, ban' then wtf, the starlights match was at 8:30 streamed, joe said dont be late because beast he to go see his auntie in hospital, as you can see beast plays the whole match, which clearly means i was not in the woodberry game because i was back in time for my 20:30 streamed game and in time for beast to play the whole match and leave as soon as the game finished because he had to go see her, streamed match was played at 20:30, why? because we had to ask to move it forward because of beast, perkins will know about that too

http://puu.sh/3GxJF.png wala

i dont see what was so hard for jonny to believe when i was talking to him for me to tell him it wasnt me, there was no need to lie, you had no proof it was me, just what you thought, could have been tom dick or harry who left during a match, do you enquire on that everytime? i told him it wasnt me because i know for a fact it wasnt

i have no idea why that last pastebin is there, other than maybe where jonny says 'momo wasnt momo' or if its some kind of incriminating evidence on me because rolex wished me 'gl' who knows what the admins think

<01:04:05> "Jai": if i tell you that it becomes obvious
<01:04:11> "Jai": like almost 100% easy to guess

when someone says that doesnt it make it seem alot more like it wasnt me, 'if you knew this one more little bit you know its not me', kinda thing, i had no idea what jonny was going about, if what he was saying it was true about the, 'if you cant prove it wasnt you, it was you' and 'i know it was you, so any cooperation would be beneficial on your part' is it even possible, but i knew i didnt do it

<00:19:03> "Jai": but it was not me 100%
<02:22:03> "[jonni] jonni": kid finks this is a game
<02:22:52> "[jonni] jonni": well currently everythin points to him, so unless he says who it was, he's band

was not me 100%, i was doing anything to get myself off the hook, many people have told me that jonny was bluffing, but i didnt know that, i didnt want to get banned (obvs) so i was doing whatever possible to devert the blame from me

fuck knows why i've even typed this long fuck of a paragraph, because whenever i told some admins they'd something and go back on it, this was my first 'bad' experience on fm, i deserved it admittedly, but the way you handled and carried out trying to find who impersonated who was just bonkers, bored of typing the same thing over and over again to admins who wont believe what i say

p.s i said alot of shit the past week, some i regret jus cus i was caught up in the moment i guess, sorry for that if i did something that pissed you off, :p i know i told alot of stuff to admins to just try and annoy them, mainly as a way things had went with perkins and jonny, sorry it was wrong to try and 'troll' you by saying i was impersonationg and bla bla

and soc/perk might also have a convo of me confessing to every woodberry impersonation, then going back on it and saying 'see how easy it is to lie' one persons confession means everything right? no, and assuming it was me who impersonated ppl when you have no proof whatsoever apart from a hunch is just unfair

tl;dr, i dont know what to say, i told numerous of people i didnt do it and i didnt, in that pastebin 'rolex was impersonated for the ajhax game' i had a ducks game at the exact same time, must of been me who did it right?

[s.signorelli]

can i just get the blame, as i don't really play hax, so i wont mind getting the 13 game bans? :)

[DoCtoRé]

There is a couple of issues i can raise upon, however i will not do so, because it'll just piss some members off.
The only point i'd like to make, is that at the end of the day, haxball is just a game consisting of 4 arrow keys and an x button. There is no reason to ban anybody without 100% proof of the suspect committing that offense. I believe trust should also be an important factor here - We should trust each other first and foremost because this is what builds a community. No-one likes a community based upon lies. So i ask you please, to trust Jai, because i know i do.

Furthermore, this isn't supposed to be a hit at jonny, but a few days ago ( i dont remember when cause i've been high every day for 2 months now ) Jonny told ogre that he had evidence that the main culprit was him and that he should admit it.
Just shows what the admins consider as Evidence , is not really what the definition of evidence points at.

Have a good day folks

[dora da gora]

first time ive ever agreed with pedy

[Joehan]

Tbh it isn't my place to say whether Jai impersonated or not, but I asked him as a captain to a player to be truthful and he told me that he didn't, so that is good enough for me.

You simply cannot take a supposed confession as evidence for a 5 match ban. You cannot tell if he is joking, covering up for somebody, he could have said he did it for any reason.

Seeing as there is no solid proof for Jai impersonating, I ask again for his ban to be reversed. It sets a really nasty precedent if this ban us upheld, and it would be better for FM and the admins if the ban was reversed and we put this all behind us.

[OvoXo]

Where's Aaron at@ He'd usually say have a

[Ghost]

Upon further discussion we have decided to reverse both Jai's and Tanzim's suspensions.

We agree that the approach the admins took was wrong and apologise for that. However it doesn't help when you have people trolling left & right while we are trying to define what actually happened. We have a difficult job when it comes to things like this, as it's practically impossible to gather actual evidence, hopefully at some point in the future we will have a system in place that will stop things like this from happening again.


The Woodberry vs Gorilla's match will be replayed at a time of both captains choosing. Hopefully Gorilla's will be able to forgive what happened and we can all move on.

[Jai]

thankyou ghost/admins also, i apologise for my actions, just felt abit aggrieved about what had happened

[Joehan]

Great decision. It really shows guts to reverse an important decision like that, and you have to commend the admins for doing so. Lets hope we can put all this behind us and have a good season.

[dora da gora]

now lets all laugh over dis with a few pints @fm meetup